• Brian O'Kelly

20 - Can You Lose Your Salvation?


20- Challenges to the 5 points

3. Limited Atonement

3.1. Re-examining the positive case

3.1.1. Not only making salvation possible, but secured

3.1.1.1. “Yet if Christ actually saved all of the elect at Calvary, they could never have been lost and would not need to be saved later. Scripture doesn’t say that a man is “saved already.” It says that he is “condemned already,” and not because Christ didn’t die for him but “because he hath not believed” (John 3:18)…If Christ’s death in itself saved, the elect wouldn’t need to believe” —Dave Hunt, Debating Calvinism: five points, two views, by Dave Hunt and James White


3.1.1.2. 2 Cor.5:19—“that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”

3.1.1.3. Heb.9:12—“Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

3.1.1.4. Contrast:

3.1.1.4.1. 1 Corinthians 8:11—“And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?”


3.1.1.4.2. 2 Peter 2:1—“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.”

3.1.1.4.3. Hebrews 10:29—“Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?”

3.1.2. Jesus died only for His own “sheep,” “friends,” “church”

3.1.2.1. John 10:11, 15, 26-27—“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep…15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep…26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

3.1.2.2. John 15:13—“Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.”

3.1.2.3. Acts 20:28—“Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

3.1.2.4. Eph.1:7—“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace…”

3.1.2.5. Eph.5:25—“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her…”

3.1.2.6. John 17:9— “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.”

3.2. Contrary Witness of Scripture

3.2.1. Jesus died for those whom He “loves”

3.2.1.1. ”By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are…foreordained to everlasting death…to the praise of His glorious justice.” Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism

3.2.1.2. “God is not at all that loving toward [those] not elected unto salvation…. It would have been more loving of God not to have allowed them to be born.” R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God

3.2.1.3. 1 John 3:16—“By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us…”

3.2.1.4. 1 John 4:9-10—“In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”

3.2.1.5. Galatians 2:20—“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”

3.2.1.6. John 3:16—“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

3.2.1.7. Mark 10:21—“Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “’One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.’”

3.2.2. Christ died for “sinners”

3.2.2.1. Luke 5:32—“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

3.2.2.2. Luke 7:34—“The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’”

3.2.2.3. Romans 5:7-8—“For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

3.2.2.4. 1 Timothy 1:15—“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.”

3.2.3. He died for “all men”

3.2.3.1. “As a reformed Christian, the writer believes that counselors must not tell any unsaved counselee that Christ died for him…No man knows except Christ himself who are his elect for whom he died.” Jay E. Adams, Competent to Counsel

3.2.3.2. Isaiah 53:6— All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

3.2.3.3. Romans 5:18—“Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.”

3.2.3.4. I Timothy 2:1-6—“Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time…”

3.2.3.5. I Timothy 4:10—“For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.”

3.2.3.6. Hebrews 2:9—“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.”

3.2.3.7. 2 Peter 3:9—“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

3.2.3.8. “We believe that from all eternity God has intended to leave some of Adam’s posterity in their sins, and that the decisive factor...is to be found only in God’s will.” —Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination

3.2.3.9. “For the sake of maintaining clear distinctions, let us call this will ‘the perceptive will of God’…the perceptive will of God can be disobeyed…But there is another sense in which Scripture refers to ‘the will of God.’ This is what we call ‘the decretive will of God,’ which refers to the fact that God has decreed what will happen.” —Douglas Wilson, in Back to Basics: Rediscovering the Richness of the Reformed Faith, David G. Hagopian

3.2.3.10. “Carson affirms God’s wish that all be saved, he believes that God’s will has already decided to distribute saving grace selectively. God’s love, in Carson’s view, compels God to issue an earnest invitation for all to repent and believe, but it does not provide to all the ability to respond appropriately.” —Jerry L. Walls and Joseph R. Dongell, Why I am not a Calvinist

3.2.3.11. [Commenting on Jer.13:15-17: “Hear and pay attention, do not be arrogant, for the Lord has spoken. Give glory to the Lord your God before he brings the darkness. . . . But if you do not listen, I will weep in secret because of your pride; my eyes will weep bitterly, overflowing with tears, because the Lord’s flock will be taken captive “]: “Knowing that Judah did not turn and listen, the Calvinist concludes that God had already chosen to withhold his transforming grace from them, though he could easily have granted it. So while the text appears to identify Judah’s pride as the root cause of punishment, the Calvinist instead concludes that Judah’s ability to repent depends on God’s eternally fixed plan. Again, although the text seems to identify salvation as God’s deepest desire, the Calvinist must conclude that at a deeper level God never intended to bestow transforming grace on Jeremiah’s hearers. In other words, the true intentions of God cannot be discerned from his words.“ —Jerry L. Walls and Joseph R. Dongell, Why I am not a Calvinist

3.2.4. His death was for the sins of “the whole world”

3.2.4.1. John 1:29—“The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”

3.2.4.2. John 3:17—“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

3.2.4.3. II Corinthians 5:19—“that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”

3.2.4.4. I John 2:2—“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”

3.2.4.5. Matthew 13:44, 38—“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field…The field is the world.”

3.2.4.6. “To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain.” —James White, Debating Calvinism: five points, two views, by Dave Hunt and James White

3.2.4.7. "We consent to Paul's judgment that God 'desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth' and to Peter's conviction that God is 'not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance' (I Tim.2:4, 2 Pet.3:9). If it seems controversial to assert this conviction boldly and unashamedly, then it ought at least to be admitted that here is a truth far more deserving of controversy than many which are debated. On it hangs, we believe, the validity of the universal offer of the gospel, and the possibility of Christian assurance. If we do not know that God loves all sinners, we do not know that God loves us, and we do not know that he loves those to whom we take the gospel." —Clark Pinnock, Grace Unlimited

4. Irresistible Grace

4.1. Re-examining the positive case

4.1.1. Inevitability

4.1.1.1. John 6:37—“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out…”

4.1.1.2. Who was “given” to Jesus?

4.1.1.3. John 17:6—“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.”]

4.1.1.4. Acts 13:48—“Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

4.1.1.4.1. [This verse makes no mention of predestination. It says that those who “believed” had been “appointed” or “disposed” (Gr. tasso) to eternal life. If “appointed,” there is no indication of predestination before all ages. If “disposed,” there is no mention of who or what disposed them (cf. 1 Cor.16:15). These people are contrasted to those in Acts 13:46]

4.1.2. “Dragged” by God?

4.1.2.1. Phil.2:13—“…for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

4.1.2.2. John 6:44-45—“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” [ “Draw” = Gr. helkuo (John 12:32; Hos.11:3-4)]

4.1.3. Effectual call

4.1.3.1. Rom.8:30—“Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

4.1.3.2. “There is a universal call, by which God through the external preaching of the word invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savour of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation…There is the general call, by which God invites all equally to himself through the outward preaching of the word—even those to whom he holds it out as a savor of death [cf. 2 Cor. 2:16], and as the occasion of severer condemnation. The other kind of call is special, which he deigns for the most part to give to the believer alone, which by the inward illumination of his Spirit he causes the preached Word to dwell in their hearts. Yet sometimes he also causes those whom he illumines only for a time to partake of it; then he justly forsakes them on account of their ungratefulness and strikes them with even greater blindness.” —John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

4.1.3.3. “This is a remarkable passage, but it is difficult to make sense of it on Calvinistic premises. Notice, Calvin says that God causes some of the non-elect to partake of the inner illumination of the Spirit but only for a time—because of their ungratefulness. “Surely it is natural to infer that these persons could actually respond favorably to the inner illumination they receive. Otherwise, it is hard to make sense of how their ingratitude can be the just cause of even more severe condemnation. In other words, Calvin appears to imply that these persons have been enabled to believe and pursue the good but have perversely refused to do so: they could have, but they freely chose otherwise. “However, this reading does not square with Calvin’s doctrine of election. For if these persons are not among the elect, they simply cannot respond with this sort of gratitude. But if they were among the elect, they would surely do so.” —Jerry L. Walls and Joseph R. Dongell, Why I am not a Calvinist

4.2. Contrary Witness of Scripture

4.2.1. The call of a sovereign can be rejected:

4.2.1.1. Mark 10:21-22 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

4.2.1.2. Matthew 22:2-7—“The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city

4.2.1.3. Isaiah 5:3-4—“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?”

4.2.1.4. Isaiah 65:12/66:3-4—“Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear,
But did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.”

4.2.1.5. Jeremiah 7:13—“I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you, but you did not answer…”

4.2.1.6. Matthew 20:16/22:14—“...for many be called, but few chosen.”

4.2.1.7. Matthew 23:37—“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

4.2.1.7.1. Who is addressed here?

4.2.1.8. Luke 19:41-44 / “sons of Zion” (Lam.4:2; Zech.9:13)/ “Daughters of Jerusalem [or Zion]” (Song of Songs; Isaiah 4:4; Luke 23:28) / “O Zion” or “O Jerusalem” = The city personified, or its population collectively (Ps.137:5; 146:10; 147:12; Isa.40:9; 51:17; 52:1; 62:6; Jer.4:14; 6:8; 7:29; Zech.2:7; 9:13)—not the leadership]

4.2.1.9. Acts 7:51—“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit.”

4.2.2. Repentance “granted” by God

4.2.2.1. Acts 5:31—“Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.”

4.2.2.2. Acts 11:18—“When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, ‘Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.’”

4.2.2.3. 2 Tim. 2:25—“…in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth… “ But, a privilege granted is not always seized upon

4.2.2.4. Acts 17:30—“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.”

4.2.2.5. 2 Peter 3:9—“The Lord…is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

4.2.2.6. Ezekiel 33:11—“Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’”

4.2.2.7. Jeremiah 13:17—“But if you will not hear it, My soul will weep in secret for your pride; My eyes will weep bitterly And run down with tears…”

4.2.2.8. Revelation 2:21—“And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.” Luke 7:30—“But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by [John].”

4.2.3. . Faith a “gift” from God

4.2.3.1. Eph.2:8-9—“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

4.2.3.2. “Paul…does not mean that faith is the gift [but that] salvation is given to us by God.” —John Calvin, Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries

4.2.3.3. Phil.1:29—“For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”

4.2.3.4. Heb.12:2—“…looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith…”

4.2.3.5. 2 Pet.1:1—“To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

4.2.3.6. Acts 18:27—“And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace.”

4.2.3.7. 1 John 5:1—“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.”

4.2.4. A true “gift” is not imposed upon unwilling recipients

4.2.4.1. Rom.5:18—“Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.”

4.2.4.2. Luke 9:53—“But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem.”

4.2.4.3. John 1:11—“He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.”

4.2.4.4. John 5:43—“I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me…”

4.2.4.5. John 12:48—“He who rejects Me…”

4.2.5. Jesus marveled at the faith of some, and the lack of faith of others. Why?

4.2.5.1. Matthew 8:10—“When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!”

4.2.5.2. Matthew 15:28—“Then Jesus answered and said to her, ‘O woman, great is your faith!’”

4.2.5.3. Mark 6:6—“And He marveled because of their unbelief.”

4.2.6. Why are people held responsible for their lack of faith?

4.2.6.1. Psalm 78:21-22—“Therefore the LORD heard this and was furious; so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel, because they did not believe in God, and did not trust in His salvation.”

4.2.6.2. Mark 16:14—“Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.”

4.2.6.3. John 3:36 (Young’s Literal)—“…he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing* the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.” [*Gr. apeithéo “Not to allow oneself to be persuaded or believe, to disbelieve, be disobedient.”

5. Perseverance of the Saints

5.1. Re-examining the positive case

5.1.1. Many were never really saved

5.1.1.1. Matt.7:21-23—“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

5.1.1.2. 1 John 2:19—“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”

5.1.2. Unconditional security?

5.1.2.1. John 3:16—“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

5.1.2.2. John 5:24—“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

5.1.2.3. John 6:35—And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

5.1.2.4. John 6:37—“…the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.”

5.1.2.5. John 8:51—“Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

5.1.2.6. John 10:27-30—“My sheep know my voice…and they follow me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

5.1.2.7. John 11:26—“And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.”

5.1.3. God is faithful (but are we?)

5.1.3.1. II Timothy 2:11-13—“This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him,
we shall also live with Him.12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.”

5.1.3.2. 1 Corinthians 1:8-9—“…who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.”

5.1.3.3. Philippians 1:6—“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

5.1.3.4. Romans 8:35-39—“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?...37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

5.1.3.5. Ephesians 4:30—“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”

5.1.3.6. 1 Peter 1:5—“who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

5.2. Contrary Witness of Scripture

5.2.1. Salvation is “in Christ”

5.2.1.1. I John 5:11-12—“And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”

5.2.1.2. Galatians 5:4—“You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

5.2.1.3. 1 John 2:24—“Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.”

5.2.1.4. John 15:6—“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”

5.2.1.5. Romans 11:22—“Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

5.2.2. Continuing in the faith is not inevitable

5.2.2.1. 1 Peter 1:5—“…who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time…”

5.2.2.2. 2 Timothy 3:14—“But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of…”

5.2.2.3. Acts 11:23—“When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord.”

5.2.2.4. Acts 13:43—“…many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.”

5.2.2.5. Acts 14:21-22—“…they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith…”

5.2.2.6. Colossians 1:21, 23—“And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled… if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

5.2.2.7. Hebrews 3:6, 14—“…but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end…For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.”

5.2.3. It is possible to “believe for a while” and then “fall away”

5.2.3.1. Luke 8:13—“But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.”

5.2.3.2. 1 Timothy 4:1—“Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons…” Hebrews 6:4-6—“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

5.2.3.3. I Corinthians 9:26-27—“Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

5.2.3.4. Hebrews 10:26-29—“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?”

5.2.4. There is a warfare to fight, and the world and the devil to overcome

5.2.4.1. 1 Peter 5:8-9—“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Whom resist…”

5.2.4.2. James 4:7—“Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.”

5.2.4.3. Ephesians 6:13—“Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.”

5.2.4.4. 2 Peter 2:20-22—“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

5.2.4.5. 2 Timothy 4:10—“…for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica…”

5.2.4.6. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27—“Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

5.2.4.7. Revelation 3:5/22:19—“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels…and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book [or Tree] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

5.3. Why are there these warnings, if it is impossible for the believer to fall away? “The essence of the arguments of many [Calvinists] is as follows: The mere fact that travelers are warned that there is a ditch alongside the road does not mean that they will fall into it. The warnings must not lead us to suppose that they will or can. God warns believers simply because, as rational beings, they are so constituted as to require motivation. He therefore appeals to their fears to keep them on the path. But the warnings are God’s means of ensuring that they shall not fall. “One will not read long from advocates of the doctrine of unconditional security before encountering this “explanation” of the presence of so many urgent warnings against apostasy so obviously addressed to believers. The folly of their contention is seen in the fact that, the moment a man becomes persuaded that their doctrine of unconditional security is correct, the warning passages immediately lose the very purpose and value which they claim for them. Strong quotes Dr. A. C. Kendrick on Hebrews 6:4-6: “The text describes a condition subjectively possible, and therefore needing to be held up in earnest warning to the believer, while objectively and in the absolute purpose of God, it never occurs.”9 But how can there be any earnest warning” to the believer who is sufficiently “instructed” to understand that the “warning” is directed against an impossibility? How can something be subjectively possible for the person who knows it to be objectively impossible? The only possible circumstance under which the warning passages could serve the purpose and function which they claim for them would be the total rejection of the doctrine of unconditional security and inevitable perseverance. —Robert Shank, Life in the Son, p.165

6. Questions from the Audience

6.1. Dan:

6.1.1. What does the beast mean in the Bible and who is this this beast?

6.1.2. What does the word serpent means in the Bible?

6.1.3. What is does the word Babylon means, Biblically?

6.2. Richard

6.2.1. Why did then all, powerful creator of the universe and all things in it find it necessary to drown untold numbers of innocent children and little babies, and abort untold numbers of fetuses?

6.2.2. Why does God fully endorse one of the most cruel and immoral practices of one human owning another as property?

6.2.3. Why did God create viruses and parasitic organisms that have killed million over our history, including the virus that was caused the pandemic and has killed millions so far?

6.3. Raymond:

6.3.1. So the claim is disease and illness, biological defects etc are via the subsequent "fall" and A&E eating the apple...but we see that pathogens virus and disease existed existed in dino ages 100's of millions of yrs ago . Even cancer is WAY older than us. These pathogens or disease existed even before we did or our present epoch The claims is the creation was perfect prior the fall...so? Either bible writers were ignorant or peddling blatant lies

6.3.2. The original sin story is very important , it's a a "fallen world"after said apple eatng etc

6.4. Qinisela:

6.4.1. If I want to be baptized what are the processes?

6.5. Danny:

6.5.1. Can you how from the bible where it says to worship on sunday when the 4th commandment says sabbath or Saturday, there are only 8 verses in the NT that mention the 1st day of the week, Sunday so I’ve studied those, so if you have anything else I’d like to see them?